Y: The Last Man (spoilers)

[BellaStrega]

But dramatically, it had the most impact for the reader for her to get good and solidly thrashed right at the moment when she was at the height of her evilness, in a position of thoroughly evil victory, having just carried out what we, the reader, would see as one of the most evil things she could do to characters we liked.

Her death was "worth it", dramatically-speaking, because it put us into the same sort of state that the character of Yorick was in when he brought forth the baton and started a'wailing away.

I never said anything about "justified" anything.

It's not fucking rocket science, guys.

"worth it" = justified in terms of plotting, afaic.

Also, this positions 355 as a prop to motivate Yorick, rather than a three dimensional character. She only has real value when she becomes his love interest and is then immediately lost, thus giving Yorick's revenge a greater frisson.

I'm not a fan of that. 355's death was disappointing, and completely unnecessary to the plot or to Yorick's inevitable revenge. I got over this revenge porn nonsense when my mother's ex kept dragging the family to see Death Wish movies when I was like 8 years old.

But also, Yorick was not really the most important character in the series. I mean, sure, he's the last man and all, but Alison's father was correct when he pointed out men were no longer necessary.

[That's My Stapler]

But dramatically, it had the most impact for the reader for her to get good and solidly thrashed right at the moment when she was at the height of her evilness, in a position of thoroughly evil victory, having just carried out what we, the reader, would see as one of the most evil things she could do to characters we liked.

Her death was "worth it", dramatically-speaking, because it put us into the same sort of state that the character of Yorick was in when he brought forth the baton and started a'wailing away.

I never said anything about "justified" anything.

It's not fucking rocket science, guys.

"worth it" = justified in terms of plotting, afaic.

Also, this positions 355 as a prop to motivate Yorick, rather than a three dimensional character. She only has real value when she becomes his love interest and is then immediately lost, thus giving Yorick's revenge a greater frisson.

I'm not a fan of that. 355's death was disappointing, and completely unnecessary to the plot or to Yorick's inevitable revenge. I got over this revenge porn nonsense when my mother's ex kept dragging the family to see Death Wish movies when I was like 8 years old.

But also, Yorick was not really the most important character in the series. I mean, sure, he's the last man and all, but Alison's father was correct when he pointed out men were no longer necessary.

I guess people took different things from the series. To me the whole series was a testament that men WERE necessary.

Also Ampersand dying was sad as hell. Poor little monkey.

[LunarNewYear]

But dramatically, it had the most impact for the reader for her to get good and solidly thrashed right at the moment when she was at the height of her evilness, in a position of thoroughly evil victory, having just carried out what we, the reader, would see as one of the most evil things she could do to characters we liked.

Her death was "worth it", dramatically-speaking, because it put us into the same sort of state that the character of Yorick was in when he brought forth the baton and started a'wailing away.

I never said anything about "justified" anything.

It's not fucking rocket science, guys.

"worth it" = justified in terms of plotting, afaic.

Because that's clearly what the fuck I was saying when I used the term.   

Also, this positions 355 as a prop to motivate Yorick, rather than a three dimensional character. She only has real value when she becomes his love interest and is then immediately lost, thus giving Yorick's revenge a greater frisson.

No, it makes her a character you care about in a dramatic story. 

[LunarNewYear]

But dramatically, it had the most impact for the reader for her to get good and solidly thrashed right at the moment when she was at the height of her evilness, in a position of thoroughly evil victory, having just carried out what we, the reader, would see as one of the most evil things she could do to characters we liked.

Her death was "worth it", dramatically-speaking, because it put us into the same sort of state that the character of Yorick was in when he brought forth the baton and started a'wailing away.

I never said anything about "justified" anything.

It's not fucking rocket science, guys.

"worth it" = justified in terms of plotting, afaic.

Also, this positions 355 as a prop to motivate Yorick, rather than a three dimensional character. She only has real value when she becomes his love interest and is then immediately lost, thus giving Yorick's revenge a greater frisson.

I'm not a fan of that. 355's death was disappointing, and completely unnecessary to the plot or to Yorick's inevitable revenge. I got over this revenge porn nonsense when my mother's ex kept dragging the family to see Death Wish movies when I was like 8 years old.

But also, Yorick was not really the most important character in the series. I mean, sure, he's the last man and all, but Alison's father was correct when he pointed out men were no longer necessary.

I guess people took different things from the series. To me the whole series was a testament that men WERE necessary.

Also Ampersand dying was sad as hell. Poor little monkey.

Bolded the bit that I absolutely agree with. I took neither the "men are unnecessary" nor the "men are necessary" from the story, but rather more of a generalized "people can fuck up any situation", and "the notions that women would be peaceful and full of sisterhood without evil men around and that without men the world would end completely are both myths"   testament.

[LunarNewYear]

And, in point of information, while "most important" is a matter of personal preference, it is a simple fact that Yorick was the protagonist for the majority of the story, in that he was the one whose decisions drove the plot along.

As much as I loved 355, she was not the protagonist.

[That's My Stapler]

But dramatically, it had the most impact for the reader for her to get good and solidly thrashed right at the moment when she was at the height of her evilness, in a position of thoroughly evil victory, having jsut carried out what we, the reader, would see as one of the most evil things she could do to characters we liked.

Her death was "worth it", dramatically-speaking, because it put us into the same sort of state that the character of Yorick was in when he brought forth the baton and started a'wailing away.

I never said anything about "justified" anything.

It's not fucking rocket science, guys.

"worth it" = justified in terms of plotting, afaic.

Also, this positions 355 as a prop to motivate Yorick, rather than a three dimensional character. She only has real value when she becomes his love interest and is then immediately lost, thus giving Yorick's revenge a greater frisson.

I'm not a fan of that. 355's death was disappointing, and completely unnecessary to the plot or to Yorick's inevitable revenge. I got over this revenge porn nonsense when my mother's ex kept dragging the family to see Death Wish movies when I was like 8 years old.

But also, Yorick was not really the most important character in the series. I mean, sure, he's the last man and all, but Alison's father was correct when he pointed out men were no longer necessary.

I guess people took different things from the series. To me the whole series was a testament that men WERE necessary.

Also Ampersand dying was sad as hell. Poor little monkey.

Bolded the bit that I absolutely agree with. I took neither the "men are unnecessary" nor the "men are necessary" from the story, but rather more of a generalized "people can fuck up any situation", and "the notions that women would be peaceful and full of sisterhood without evil men around and that without men the world would end completely are both myths"   testament.

I should kind of clarify. I felt that the series depicted that men were necessary because both genders need each other to truly function. I don't think the outcome would have been any better if all the women had died instead. I felt it was a testament to the need for both. And I think the Yorick/355 relationship was an example of this but with the typical man/woman roles reversed.

[LunarNewYear]

But dramatically, it had the most impact for the reader for her to get good and solidly thrashed right at the moment when she was at the height of her evilness, in a position of thoroughly evil victory, having jsut carried out what we, the reader, would see as one of the most evil things she could do to characters we liked.

Her death was "worth it", dramatically-speaking, because it put us into the same sort of state that the character of Yorick was in when he brought forth the baton and started a'wailing away.

I never said anything about "justified" anything.

It's not fucking rocket science, guys.

"worth it" = justified in terms of plotting, afaic.

Also, this positions 355 as a prop to motivate Yorick, rather than a three dimensional character. She only has real value when she becomes his love interest and is then immediately lost, thus giving Yorick's revenge a greater frisson.

I'm not a fan of that. 355's death was disappointing, and completely unnecessary to the plot or to Yorick's inevitable revenge. I got over this revenge porn nonsense when my mother's ex kept dragging the family to see Death Wish movies when I was like 8 years old.

But also, Yorick was not really the most important character in the series. I mean, sure, he's the last man and all, but Alison's father was correct when he pointed out men were no longer necessary.

I guess people took different things from the series. To me the whole series was a testament that men WERE necessary.

Also Ampersand dying was sad as hell. Poor little monkey.

Bolded the bit that I absolutely agree with. I took neither the "men are unnecessary" nor the "men are necessary" from the story, but rather more of a generalized "people can fuck up any situation", and "the notions that women would be peaceful and full of sisterhood without evil men around and that without men the world would end completely are both myths"   testament.

I should kind of clarify. I felt that the series depicted that men were necessary because both genders need each other to truly function. I don't think the outcome would have been any better if all the women had died instead. I felt it was a testament to the need for both. And I think the Yorick/355 relationship was an example of this but with the typical man/woman roles reversed.

Well-stated.

[BellaStrega]

No, it makes her a character you care about in a dramatic story. 

I don't like to stick to superficial analyses of fiction. I enjoy it more if I go deeper than "yay, it's entertainment!"

And I'm not sure how you can say that a plot development is "worth it" in a way that doesn't mean "it's justified." This is a semantic debate: I don't feel that plot development was worth it, and Alter didn't need yet another sin to make revenge against her more satisfying.

[LunarNewYear]

No, it makes her a character you care about in a dramatic story. 

I don't like to stick to superficial analyses of fiction. I enjoy it more if I go deeper than "yay, it's entertainment!"

Oh, sweet Odin's beard, that's not at all what I was doing.  Why is it necessary for you to construct straw-man arguments in order to just disagree with me about a comic book?

Shit, if anything, I'm being a little more deep in my analysis than you are, since I haven't ever talked about her death as "just a plot development".

And I'm not sure how you can say that a plot development is "worth it" in a way that doesn't mean "it's justified." This is a semantic debate: I don't feel that plot development was worth it, and Alter didn't need yet another sin to make revenge against her more satisfying.

It's not even a semantic debate. You aren't sure how I can say X, I'm not sure how many more ways I can explain exactly what I mean when I say X. I suppose I can come up with another comical method, like the cave-man grunting, but what would be the point? You wouldn't get it, because you're not actually reading what I write.

I honestly don't care if you disagree with me, especially considering that my original statement was nothing more than a personal opinion on the event in question, and had nothing to do with how you, yourself, "should" feel about it, but at least do me the courtesy, if you're going to repeatedly disagree with what I'm saying, to at least disagree with what I'm actually saying, rather than a superficial and easily-dismissed misconstruction.

Thanks.

[Foo]

I reject your assertion that the caveman grunting was comical! 

[LunarNewYear]

I reject your assertion that the caveman grunting was comical! 

I don't like to stick to superficial analysis of my lulz.

[BellaStrega]

It's not even a semantic debate. You aren't sure how I can say X, I'm not sure how many more ways I can explain exactly what I mean when I say X. I suppose I can come up with another comical method, like the cave-man grunting, but what would be the point? You wouldn't get it, because you're not actually reading what I write.

I honestly don't care if you disagree with me, especially considering that my original statement was nothing more than a personal opinion on the event in question, and had nothing to do with how you, yourself, "should" feel about it, but at least do me the courtesy, if you're going to repeatedly disagree with what I'm saying, to at least disagree with what I'm actually saying, rather than a superficial and easily-dismissed misconstruction.

Thanks.

All right:

I disagree with you because killing 355 (killing the love interest) is a long-used trope used to motivate men. I am frankly tired of seeing strong female characters killed off  so men can get angry and lay the smack down. I didn't feel that it was worth it, because the cost to me personally was the cost of a significant amount of my interest in the story and its outcome.

I looked back to retrace my line of thought, and the reason I reacted at all was when you said:

What happened to 355 was "worth it" (reader perspective, not Yorick's) for what then happened to Alter.

which at the time I read as a blanket, rather than personal statement.

And yes, I do think that "Kill the girl so the man's wrath is more satisfying" is not as deep, because it ignores the history of that particular trope, the way it's used, the context of the culture it's used in, and how female characters are typically treated in media. What happened to 355 wasn't precisely a fridging but it was too close for my comfort. Sure, the revenge makes you feel good, but it doesn't work that way for me, at all.

I apologize, however, for taking your disagreement personally.

[Xcalibeer]

By linking to tvtropes you have rendered all points you made in this discussion invalid.

[That Ninjerk]

Explain.

[LunarNewYear]

What happened to 355 wasn't precisely a fridging because it wasn't a fridging at all.

I could go into a nice long explanation about how it was precisely the same thing as when Count Rugen manages to stab Inigo in the stomach, without reducing the importance of 355 at all or making Yorick dominant, but I'm not sure there would be a point to it. I'm just not in the mood to explain why tragedies are not the same things as comedies, and other aspects of basic dramatic theory.

[Foo]

I am not smart enough to get how terribly you just skewered Kali's argument.

[Foo]

Wait, did you just equate 355 and Inigo's stomach?  Now I really don't get it.

[LunarNewYear]

No, I think you just did. How long have you been so intensly sexist?

[Foo]

Um.  Since I found my penis, I guess.

[LunarNewYear]

So last week, then?